15:04:31 <Lurimax> #startmeeting
15:04:31 <Beaker_> Meeting started Mon Jun 11 15:04:31 2012 UTC+1.  The chair is Lurimax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:04:31 <Beaker_> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:04:42 <bsjones> fedora QA is having ther's now, so I guess its not really a bad time
15:04:52 <Lurimax> all present say "I"
15:04:57 <bsjones> I
15:05:08 <Lurimax> true dat. Hopefully we will have more next time
15:05:31 <Lurimax> #topic What do we need to have ready to submit the spin
15:05:51 <Lurimax> Two link we need to know:
15:06:03 <Lurimax> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Guidelines
15:06:13 <Lurimax> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Process
15:06:49 <Lurimax> so basicly, we need to have the kickstarter file ready by 1st of july
15:06:57 <bsjones> sounds reasonable
15:07:24 <Lurimax> I'm guessing you have more knowladge of what has to go into the kickstarter?
15:07:38 <bsjones> there pretty simple really
15:08:15 <bsjones> there's plenty of examples from the other spins we can use
15:08:31 <bsjones> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git
15:09:04 <Lurimax> #link
15:09:10 <bsjones> basically once we decide on the desktop we are after we ill probably have our kickstart import that, then issue directives in the kickstart to add/remove packages
15:09:10 <Lurimax> #link http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git
15:09:57 <bsjones> #link http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=music-creation.git;a=summary
15:10:08 <Lurimax> so we need to have DE ready, and all applications that need to be in, right?
15:11:11 <bsjones> well, I wouldn't want to hold up the spins process by waiting to decide on what packages we are going to include, because that part of it is pretty trivial
15:11:32 <Lurimax> yeah, that's what i was thinking
15:11:37 <bsjones> I think we should start working on the configuration problem ASAP
15:11:57 <Lurimax> #info configuration should be a priority
15:12:09 <bsjones> its those things which will come under more intense scrutiny when the spin goes up for review
15:12:18 <Lurimax> You're thinking of the whole jacl/alsa thing
15:12:23 <Lurimax> *jack
15:12:25 <bsjones> yeah
15:12:49 <Lurimax> as i have not been totaly with it, what is the current situation?
15:13:06 <bsjones> we also need to be conscious of where the rest of the release is headed as well (ie. what vresion of pulseaudio will be around and how will that affect us)
15:13:17 <Lurimax> good point
15:13:33 <bsjones> at the moment pulseaudio is the default in all the spins
15:14:05 <Lurimax> #info we need to be conscious of where the rest of the releases are headed as well (ie. what vresion of pulseaudio will be around)
15:14:17 <Lurimax> if it was up to me, i would rip out pulse audio
15:15:09 <Lurimax> but i don't think that is a viable option
15:15:27 <bsjones> Well it really depends on who the target audience is
15:15:49 <bsjones> I really don't hink people who know there way around linux audio are going to bother with the spin in the first place
15:15:58 <bsjones> at least not in th efirst instance
15:15:59 <Lurimax> yeah, that's part of the next topic i guess :p
15:16:07 <Lurimax> no, i a agree
15:16:17 <Lurimax> so let's narrow this topic down
15:16:36 <bsjones> if we can have pulseaudio working out of the box, and provide a way to turn on off jack/pulse and pulse briding that would be grand
15:17:09 <Lurimax> we need to figure out what software we want(DE especailly), and we need to start on configuring(which is the biggest part)?
15:17:44 <bsjones> I guess the aim is to have both jack and non jack enabled applications work at the same time out of the box
15:17:46 <Lurimax> just so we know what to have ready for the next meeting
15:18:08 <bsjones> If size is no issue, I'm going to vote for KDE
15:18:29 <bsjones> Qt apps look great, and doesn't give me Xruns like GNOME does
15:19:15 <bsjones> I'll send an email to the list if anyone has some tips to get Gnome 3 running smoothly, but I'm doubtful - oput me down of an action on that
15:19:40 <Lurimax> #agreed We need to start working on configuring JACK and deciding on a DE. apps are trivial and can de decided closer to the deadline
15:20:15 <Lurimax> which list would that be?
15:20:37 <bsjones> Lurimax, I will upload my kxStudio packages to my repo so you can have a look at how they handle it - pretty simply python code which calls out to bash scripts - you could probably knowck up something for the config very similar
15:20:51 <bsjones> the fedora-music-list
15:21:33 <Lurimax> #topic Software and DE
15:21:53 <Lurimax> ] #action bsjones will email the fedora-music-list for tips on getting gnome3 running smoothly
15:22:26 <Lurimax> #action Lurimax will look at bsjones kxStudio packages for tips on handeling jack configuration
15:22:42 <Lurimax> that sounds ok?
15:22:46 <bsjones> sure
15:22:58 <Lurimax> ok, software
15:23:16 <Lurimax> my big question is: do we want to use a rt-kernel?
15:23:33 <bsjones> i propose that we ensapsulate all of this config stuff in a fedora-audio package which will consist of a python program which is configured to autostart from the kickstart
15:23:53 <bsjones> we can't use the rt-kernel at this stage - I'd forget about it for this release
15:24:00 <Lurimax> i agree
15:24:21 <Lurimax> is rt broken or is it just to little time to implement it?
15:24:23 <bsjones> we'd have to get the kernel team to sign off on it and they're not interested at this stage without seeing some benchmarks
15:24:31 <Lurimax> fair enough
15:24:56 <bsjones> however, we should see if ware able to add threadirqs to the kernel command line and install rtirq by default (currently in CCRMA)
15:25:05 <bsjones> *if we are*
15:25:19 <Lurimax> #info rt-kernel is out of the question
15:25:31 <Lurimax> i can look into that
15:25:32 <bsjones> that should give us reasonable performance
15:26:06 <Lurimax> #action Lurimax will look into adding threadirqs to the kernel command line
15:26:17 <bsjones> you may want to research some of the spins docco for what we can and can't do, and send to the spins mailing list or ask in #fedora-releng if you have questions
15:26:49 <Lurimax> I'm going to contact them tomorrow morning and let them know (more) about us
15:26:54 <bsjones> cool
15:27:15 <Lurimax> much more is going to happen now that i'm in this 100% :D
15:27:51 <Lurimax> #action Lurimax will communicate with the spins team, and remember #fedora-releng
15:28:24 <Lurimax> so we both agree that a "larger" DE would be good (KDE, Gnome)?
15:29:09 <bsjones> I'm not too fussed either way to be honest - remember all of the packages will be available post install anyway
15:29:17 <Lurimax> true
15:29:39 <ParadoxGuitarist> I did that benchmarking tests for kernels a while back.
15:30:39 <ParadoxGuitarist> I perfer KDE as well, since there are a few keyboard shortcuts for normal things (like shutdown) that aren't obvisous and can be frustrating if you don't know about them.
15:31:00 <Lurimax> #info England scored against France. The score is now 1-0 to england
15:31:21 <bsjones> ha ha
15:31:39 <ParadoxGuitarist> Lurimax, did you want the kernel test results?
15:31:46 <Lurimax> sure
15:32:10 <ParadoxGuitarist> kk. I know they were emailed to the music list, just give me a minute to find them.
15:32:16 <Lurimax> no rush
15:32:33 <Lurimax> you can sort it after the meeting
15:32:50 <Lurimax> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Audio_Creation
15:34:19 <Lurimax> as we were talking about earlier, pulse audio
15:34:55 <bsjones> pulseaudio 2.0 has been released upstream - we need to work out wether that will be available in F18
15:35:08 <Lurimax> hypothetically what would happen if pulse suddenly disapeard and all we had was JACK and alsa?
15:35:24 * ParadoxGuitarist would rejoice.
15:35:39 <bsjones> my skype would stop working :)
15:35:51 <Lurimax> oh noes
15:35:57 <ParadoxGuitarist> People still use Skype?
15:36:06 <ParadoxGuitarist> What happened to Google Hangouts?
15:36:06 <bsjones> i have to for work
15:36:53 <bsjones> I thik its impossible to detach pulse from Fedora give dependencies and even if its turned off some apps just look for the presence of the lib
15:37:03 <bsjones> *given*
15:37:41 <Lurimax> but how many of those apps are going to be in?
15:38:10 <bsjones> not many probably
15:38:37 <Lurimax> i have ripped it 100% out of my mediacenter, and id didn't blow up
15:38:53 <bsjones> but if you were to have jack only (hyppothetically) you would have to ensure that its easy to get apps like flash etc wokring with jack
15:39:12 <bsjones> yum remove pulseaudio removes gnome-shell for example
15:39:22 <Lurimax> ouch
15:40:17 <bsjones> so as much as its a pain it would be nice if we could get it to co-exist. Now that Lennart is no longer heading development pulse is moving along rather rapidly so upstream is responding quicker
15:40:43 <Lurimax> i guess 2.0 is a milestone release, so it should be better, right?
15:40:44 <bsjones> the pulseaudio mailing list seems pretty reponsive to questions
15:41:03 <bsjones> It should be - Fedora only got 1.1 in F17 IIRC
15:41:04 <Lurimax> #info pulse audio is staying in
15:41:46 <Lurimax> any other issues we need to discuss about software?
15:41:51 <bsjones> Lurimax, you should start to experiment with jack/ pulse etc
15:42:01 <Lurimax> will do
15:42:30 <Lurimax> i'm thinking i have to install rawhide this week, so i'll start looking at it then
15:42:35 <bsjones> for example I'm trying out how stable having qjackctl running from .config/autostart configured to start jack on login using pactl to automate pulseaudio jack bridging
15:42:46 <bsjones> its a bit flaky, but maybe pulseaudio 2.0 is more stable
15:43:27 <ParadoxGuitarist> You should have that email Lurimax.
15:43:31 <bsjones> if we wrote an app to configure audio, we can drop config files into ~/.pulse .config etc
15:43:31 <Lurimax> i guess i could always try compiling pulse from source
15:43:41 <Lurimax> oh yeah, thanks ParadoxGuitarist :D
15:44:51 <bsjones> last time rex dieter made the latest version available in his F16 repo prior to it being released so maybe he'll do it again. I think it should build OK by just bumping the src tarball and dropping module.cork soemthing or other
15:45:38 <Lurimax> yeah, i'll play around with it either tomorrow or on wednesday
15:45:41 <bsjones> pulseaudio comes with pactl that you can use to configure pulse while running (load modules etc)
15:46:09 <bsjones> another issue tht will need to be decided is wether or not we use jack-audio-connection-kit-dbus by default
15:46:30 <Lurimax> i need to read more up on that before i can comment to much on it
15:46:41 <Lurimax> *TOO
15:46:47 <Lurimax> **caps :(
15:47:23 <bsjones> if pulse is around, and jack uses DBUS, pulse simple gives up the sund card which is nice. Otherwise you have to use pasuspender to call ajck
15:47:47 <bsjones> ther eare programs like ladish which only work with DBUS
15:47:59 <Lurimax> at a glance, i say "aye"
15:48:04 <Lurimax> an ladish uses jack?
15:48:10 <bsjones> yep
15:48:23 <Lurimax> sounds like it's something we want to do
15:48:41 <Lurimax> is this something that has been discussed on the mailing list?
15:48:41 <bsjones> Its in my repo, but is broken due to an unresolved bug in jack atm
15:48:57 <Lurimax> k
15:49:13 <bsjones> I'll update the list when we have jack is fixed
15:51:19 <bsjones> .bug 827748
15:51:51 <bsjones> no zodbot here
15:51:53 <bsjones> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=827748
15:52:01 <bsjones> if you want to track progress on the jack bug
15:52:17 <Lurimax> i was meaning if it has been discussed if we should use jack-audio-connection-kit-dbus or not
15:53:13 <bsjones> Look, I'm really not sure what my opinion is at this stage. qjackctl is DBUS enabled now, but this jack bug has kind of clouded the issue for me somewhat
15:54:10 <Lurimax> ok
15:54:14 <bsjones> I do know that he current pulseaudio jack modules are aware of it
15:54:33 <Lurimax> so maybe that is something we should leave for the next meeting?
15:54:35 <bsjones> so if it works as intended the jack/pulse bridging should just work
15:54:43 <bsjones> yep
15:55:05 <Lurimax> #action discussion of jack-audio-connection-kit-dbus is postponed until the next meeting
15:55:52 <Lurimax> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=827748
15:56:06 <Lurimax> anything else we need to discuss about software
15:56:14 <bsjones> in my repo there is a package laditools, which provies a system tray like app for configuring jack, but it (like ladish) is DBUS only. Also uin python so lots of good ideas there
15:56:27 <bsjones> kxstudio handles both i think
15:57:33 <Lurimax> sounds good
15:57:46 <bsjones> I think we should start with everything and cut back as we go along, but aim to include all LV2/ LADSPA /DSSI plugins in any case
15:57:51 <Lurimax> all this is on the wish list?
15:58:01 <Lurimax> agreed
15:58:23 <Lurimax> #agreed we should aim to include LV2/ LADSPA /DSSI plugins
15:58:58 <bsjones> that also needs a lot of cleaning up, its way out of date. I have added a lot of new entries if you want to see what needs packaging. Having as many projects under active development will make the spin very attractive methinks
15:59:10 <bsjones> just look at the change log of the wiki
15:59:34 <Lurimax> yeah, i was looking at that before the meeting
16:00:06 <bsjones> maybe you could write a simple script which queries what's packaged and what's not
16:00:21 <Lurimax> i could give it a go
16:00:32 <bsjones> for example I've added 4 new packages to the FedoraAudio tracker this week
16:00:39 <Lurimax> but it won't be my highest priority ;)
16:00:52 <bsjones> at least one of them was on the wishlist but i can't remember which
16:00:55 <bsjones> no
16:01:13 <Lurimax> #action Lurimax can write a script to see what from the whish list is packaged and what is not
16:01:28 <bsjones> while your waiting for people to get back to you I'd start trying to build your own live iso using a kickstart
16:01:34 <Lurimax> i was wondering if we should make it so that we only use one wiki page?
16:01:50 <Lurimax> will do
16:01:54 <bsjones> sure - whatever you thinks best.
16:02:12 <bsjones> there is a requirement to have at least one page dedicated to the spin as part of the review process
16:02:24 <bsjones> maybe you could start there
16:02:50 <bsjones> I find the wishlist table really cumbersome, could be made much simpler
16:03:02 <Lurimax> one is supposedly for spin development, the other is for audio creation
16:03:39 <Lurimax> but i'll work at making them prettier
16:03:53 <Lurimax> #action Lurimax will update the wiki pages
16:05:10 <Lurimax> so, we can move on to the next topic?
16:05:20 <bsjones> if you look at https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/users/packages/bsjones?acls=owner and https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/users/packages/oget?acls=owner we seem to maintain the bulk of audio packages in Fedora. HAve a look there for waht you might like to include
16:05:21 <bsjones> sure
16:06:15 <Lurimax> i'll bookmark those
16:06:29 <Lurimax> #topic Audio spin name
16:07:08 <Lurimax> i was hoping there would be more people here so we could narrow the name suggestions down to 3-4
16:07:50 <bsjones> happy to postpone this one to a leter meeting
16:07:54 <ParadoxGuitarist> I think you should just pick one.
16:08:07 <Lurimax> #link https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xP6DrIh7H1tbACqoscYo_K9Wnt3flHONsug3nsQDcPo/edit
16:08:14 <ParadoxGuitarist> If people really don't like it we can change it in future releases.
16:08:32 <Lurimax> i'll narrow it down, and we can do a poll later
16:09:06 <ParadoxGuitarist> Yeah, just pick your top 4 .
16:09:25 <Lurimax> #agreed Decision postponed to a later meeting, Lurimax will pick 3-4 to use in a poll
16:09:52 <Lurimax> #topic etc
16:10:02 <Lurimax> anything anyone would like to discuss?
16:11:04 <bsjones> I'm pretty good. I think we should start formalizing your todo list / status updates so you can pester people a little easier to keep everyone on track
16:11:36 <Lurimax> #info a repo is set up for people to try out some packages
16:11:46 <Lurimax> #link http://repos.fedorapeople.org/repos/bsjones/audio-bsjones/fedora-audio-bsjones.repo
16:11:49 <bsjones> just cut and past from your blog - they'll serve as talking points on the lsit
16:12:11 <Lurimax> i still need to start writing on my blog properly
16:12:24 <Lurimax> but things will get much more organized from now on
16:12:36 <Lurimax> and the minutes from this meeting should help
16:12:59 <bsjones> I've started adding to mine as well - nothing ground-breaking just a few notes
16:13:20 <Lurimax> yeah, i read it yesterday
16:13:43 <Lurimax> i'm hoping we get ardour3 in
16:13:48 <Lurimax> that would be cool
16:14:15 <bsjones> definitely, Ingen too
16:14:28 <bsjones> (a little bird said around september)
16:14:42 <Lurimax> i don't really now that one
16:14:51 <bsjones> LV2 patchbay app
16:14:55 <Lurimax> ah
16:15:09 <bsjones> written by the guy who does 90% of the LV2 framework
16:15:18 <Lurimax> won't september be cutting it a little close?
16:15:39 <bsjones> probably, but we've got all the dependencies in place so we may be able to sneak it in
16:15:46 <Lurimax> hehe
16:16:09 <Lurimax> well, now we know more what we are doing
16:16:24 <Lurimax> any questions, issues or comments?
16:16:48 <ParadoxGuitarist> none that I can think of.
16:17:19 <bsjones> I'm good. If you want to start playing with DBUS download the jack source rpm and rebuild with -O0 instead of O2  and ladish et al will work
16:17:52 <Lurimax> Beaker_ note If you want to start playing with DBUS download the jack source rpm and rebuild with -O0 instead of O2  and ladish et al  will work
16:17:52 <Beaker_> Lurimax: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command).
16:18:20 <Lurimax> Beaker_ note If you want to start playing with DBUS download the jack source rpm and rebuild with -O0 instead of O2  and ladish et al  will work
16:18:20 <Beaker_> Lurimax: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command).
16:18:41 <Lurimax> Beaker_ note If you want to start playing with DBUS download the jack source rpm and rebuild with -O0 instead of O2  and ladish et al  will work
16:18:41 <Beaker_> Lurimax: Error: 'If' is not a valid note id.
16:19:11 <Lurimax> Beaker_ note 1 If you want to start playing with DBUS download the jack source rpm and rebuild with -O0 instead of O2  and ladish et al  will work
16:19:11 <Beaker_> Lurimax: (note <id>) -- Retrieves a single note by its unique note id. Use the 'note list' command to see what unread notes you have.
16:19:16 <Lurimax> i give up
16:19:23 <Lurimax> sorry for the spam
16:19:23 <bsjones> alright guys - I'd better run along. I'll try and make a habit of leaving my IRC on during business ours at least. Thanks forf the meeting all!
16:19:35 <Lurimax> no problem thanks for coming
16:19:59 <Lurimax> #info next meeting will be 25th of june. same time, same place
16:20:02 <Lurimax> #endmeeting